To 'B' or not to 'B' for Yorktown?
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- June
- 17
Still no decision according to Dave Marr regarding whether Yorktown will be in Class A or Class B next year. Because of enrollment, the ‘Huskers are technically a B school, but are considering petitioning moving up to A.
Enrollment figures say Yorktown should be in Class B next season, but the ‘Huskers are considering petitioning to remain in Class A. (Photo by Matthew Brown/The Journal News)
The reason? It seems Yorktown believes Class A might have more cache and the ‘Huskers figure to be a dynamic team next year, with stars like Kevin Interlicchio, John Ranagan, and Michael Bonitatibus returning, as well as many other significant contributors.
The semifinal loss to Syosset is still eating at Yorktown, and that’s totally understandable, and the ‘Huskers might feel like they have unfinished business in Class A.
Here’s my question…and boy is it a presumptuous one:
Is a state title in Class A more meaningful than one in Class B? What should Yorktown do?
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on Tuesday, June 17th, 2008 at 3:07 am by Jeff Gold.
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The Class A Title always has been held in a little higher regard. Those schools – based on size and pool of athletes always are just a little bit more dynamic.
That is part of the reason for the classification process –
No slam on B or C schools and there are some goodies
Stay in A. (1)Chance to win prestigious A State title vs POSSIBLY losing in B. Rebuilding yr for other teams in A so Town best rep of Section 1 in A (2)Town's ususal very tough out of Section 1 Sched will give them the "elite" comp along the way that they will miss playing in A (3) Better for Class B as will give another higher quality team (JJ, Brewster, others) chance to get to States
dont forget, i think niskayuna is moving down to B also
Hey old #24, I agree with you that the "Class A Title always has been held in a little higher regard"
However, this year the best Team in the State Finals
was Rocky Point. I think they would have beat a good
(not great) West Genny Team.
I think they probably want more of a challenge on the road to get there. The B and C section one teams basically just showed up to get to the semi finals. Town had to beat a good nisky team in the quarters and there will always be a good team in the A quarters. It might just be a sense of accomplishment knowing that you really deserve to get to the semis, not saying that the b and c teams didn't deserve it, but the two teams that lost in the sectionals to jay and rye probably could've made it to the semis also.
There should be a decision if Marr should be the coach, Ripping officials, going into the stands and crying to your Ad about the officiacls during the game and cursing them afterwards, is way out of line, along with breaking a stick and throwing it in the middle of the field. He is the only coach that I have ever seen get a red card after a game (last years Murphy Cup loss to lakeland/panas) I would hope the administration at least would tell him to get his act together for next season. Its obviuos he is a good coach, he just needs to stay focused on the things that he can control, and stop being such a poor example of sportsmanship
Maybe,
I believe Yorktown will be competitive whether they remain in A or move to B. If they opt to move to B, they could renew their rivalry with Garden City.
The team this past season was fun to watch. Many players contributed to the success. Development of underclassmen (Fennessey, Casey, Lieberman) was great. Continued solid play of underclassmen (Mike B., Ranagan and Interlicchio) helped the run.
Senior leadership is an intangible that could be hard to replace next season. It was provided by the players who received consistent playing time (Bonitatibus, Froats, Kurpis, and Farrell) and by players who deserved more playing time (Aversano, Zimmel and Tarkin) but exhibited great character as the coaches inexplicably failed to use them much during the final few weeks. I tip my hat to the three of you and wish you the best in college – you deserve it.
This decision is not up to Yorktown but to the AD's from Section I as well as the state. If Yorktown moves up in Lacrosse than the entire school must move up in every other sport as well.
Be serious for a second. Marr isn't going anywhere.
Does he occasionally lose his mind on the sidelines? Of course. This isn't youth league lacrosse. While the idea is to show true sportsmanship the Yorktown program is all about winning pressure games and state titles. Parents, alumni, boosters and school district folks understand this, and Marr gets carte blanche, mostly because he gets results and, despite an occasional meltdown, is very good at developing not just great players, but continuing great tradition and making good men better men.
Take the diapers off already. Not every great coach keeps his cool all the time. A little fire never hurt anyone.
As for Yorktown going or staying, I think they'll be in for a serious challenge either way.
You stay in A you have to deal with Guilderland or Shen in Albany (no longer a walkover) and maybe even Nisky if they, too, decide to petition. However, I think it's in their best interest to go B because their program needs a state title to validate their burgeoning reputation.
Then you got Long Island and the usual suspects and then West Genny. It's a tall order ANY year. I see no basis to think next year would be any easier for Town to win it all.
If they go B, you have to deal with Nisky if they stay and you know they will be better next year than this year. Then, because Class B on Long Island is even more competitive than Class A on Long Island, regardless of who the rep is, they will be every bit as good as the A rep. And what makes it even more difficult is often the B Long Island champ is a mystery team, one that's difficult to scout and impossible to predict.
The only scenario that favors a move to B is if Yorktown does indeed get to the state finals. Because the drop-off between B and A at the highest levels is far greater upstate than on the Island.
If I had a say, I'd say stay in A because, as many have touched on, the Class A state title marks the pinnacle of excellence in New York. Unless you are head and shoulders better than everyone else, like Yorktown early 1990s and Huntington from a few years ago, teams like Ward Melville, West Islip and West Genny are viewed in higher regard because they are the biggest schools winning the biggest prize.
Yorktown has never won the Class A state title. As I've said before, the 1984 title came before classifications existed. Unofficially, it was an "A" title because both Yorktown and Genny were big schools, but since classifications started in 1986, Yorktown has made just one appearance in the A final, a brutal 13-1 loss to Genny in 1987.
The Class A state crown is the one thing missing from the 40-year run of excellence. Don't think for a second Marr & Co. don't know this.
They want to beat Genny, it's as simple as that. It's not about the road to the championship it's about winning a state title by beating the most dominant school in NYS playoffs history (and if they can beat Melville on the way that would just put the icing on the cake considering they are number 2 and a huge rival).
laxin—couldn't agree more. And, frankly, that's how it should be.
Syracuse,
Well-reasoned, but I disagree with your statement that the Class B Long Island rep. figures to be as good as the A rep. From what I gather, West Islip is going to be totally loaded again next year.
Syracuse I would very seriously disagree with your assertation of what is acceptable behavior from a coach. As i did not witness the transgressions on the part of the yorktown coach these comments are not directed at coach marr directly. As a high school coach it is imperative that part of what the coach teaches and stresses is sportmanship. most of the young men who play at the high school level will not play at the college level and the lessons they learn will stay with them for life. It is not acceptable behavior to go after the referrees after a game break a stick and throw it on the field after a loss. It is certainly ok to be upset with a loss and to strive not to lose but one of the lessons that needs to be taught in life is how to properly deal with the many frustrations that are thrown our way. I would certainly give a college coach a lot more latitude in his behavior as an athelete has a choice who to go play for. This has nothing to do with wearing diapers or anything else, this is about bringing impressionable young teenagers up in the correct manner. I'm sure the yorktown player going to hopkins will find out very quickly that Petro will not accept the behavior that he exhibited after the Syosset game. The lesson was obviously learned from above and their is no justifying it.
Well, since you didn't actually see what Marr supposedly did, why explain away the obvious? I'm talking about a specific coach, who, for reasons I have illustrated, often gets a pass. I have no problem with that because his pros VASTLY outweigh his cons. Plus, all of his antics would not for a second stop any of his players from walking into fire for him.
You aren't telling me anything I don't already know about sportsmanship and guiding young men. You just choose to state the obvious, as if you are educating me. You're not. Do I wish the guy would chill out? Yeah. But, again, he's one coach who does things a certain way that nets results and respect from everyone around him.
You think because a seldom-used reserve player sees his coach break a stick and throw it on the field, he's going to think it's OK for him to behave in a similar fashion somewhere down the road?
C'mon. Have a little faith in people.
J-Gold,
West Islip may be very good next year, but you have no way of knowing there won't be a Class B team on the Island as good if not better.
It's been proven over the years. While Melville and West Islip ruled A, Class B became all about teams emerging and making names for themselves without a significant drop-off in talent. Comeswogue, Bethpage, Wantagh, South Side, Rocky Point … the list goes on and on.
Many think Rocky Point would handle Syosset. I don't know, probably.
Huntington from B a few years ago would have beaten anyone on the Island. Garden City is often as good as the best A teams. Nobody was beating Bethpage from 1994.
I'll see your West Islip and raise you a Class B school, as of yet unidentified.
Congratulations to Yorktown on their lacrosse accomplishments this season. I am sure that they will be successful whether they play in Class A or B next year.
The continued solid play of underclassmen (Bonitatibus, Ranagan, Interlicchio & Fox) and the emergence of underclassmen (Fennessey, Brunelle, Casey, Lieberman, Hanlon and Pappas)provides a nice foundation for next season.
The intangible will be the strong leadership provided by this year's senior class. It came from those who saw consistent playing time (Bonitatibus, Froats, Kurpis, Farrell) and more importantly from those who deserved more playing time but inexplicably did not see the field much in the last few weeks of the season (Aversano, Zimmel and Tarkin). These three showed tremendous character in not becoming outwardly selfish and a potential attitude problem for the coaches and the team. I am sure it took a tremendous toll on them; you are winners in my book. Take heart in knowing that your abilities and efforts while not appreciated by the coaches were recognized and acknowledged by the Yorktown fans.
I tip my hat to these three and wish them great success in college – they certainly deserve it.
Syracuse actually any young kid watching a coach break a stick and throw it on the field will believe that that is acceptable behavior. what about the middle school kids or younger who are watching. do we not then wonder where today's lack of sportsmanship comes from parents hitting coaches with hockey sticks…kids going after refs after a game…I did not specifically say coach marr should be held accountable for his actions because i did not witness them but if it is an accepted fact that he did break a stick after the game and throw it on the field then the athletic director should hold him accountable. I don't care how many games he wins…he is representing yorktown and all of section 1 with those antics. It is not acceptable behavior and as an adult educator he should know better and the athletic director should know better.
Syracuse – so winning beats out everything, huh? Regardless of poor behavior, no matter the cost to himself, the school, the community. Remeber, winning is not life or death, or you would be dead a lot.
Brother, you need a check-up from the neck-up.
I wish I had time to write a more in depth response, but I am at work and do not have the time. I played at Yorktown back in '86 & '87 under Turnbull and my son who is now 8 has been treated better and learned more from Coach Marr and the rest of this years varsity team than I even did. Anyone who has a problem with a guy like Dave Marr does not know him. He has camps to teach the young kids, allows them on the sidelines during games and speaks with them like young adults after the game. I was at the game against Syosett and had no problem with Marr's reaction to the WORSE OFFICIATING I EVER SAW AS A FAN OR PLAYER. He had every right to react the way he did. I just hope he is still coaching Yorktown when my son makes it to high school
Steve Frey
My problem was explaining to my son why the officials were doing what they were doing, not that the coach was mad about the end result.
To the poster that said that if Town moves to A in lacrosse then they have to move to A in every sport, where are you getting this information from?
I ask because although Jay is B in lacrosse, they are A in football, baseball, etc. Each sport seems to have different breakdowns for classes, not sure what a school does in lacrosse would have impact on other sports.
Joe, any info on this point?
Obviously, Town or Jay moving up to A would be in the best interest of Section 1 lacrosse in general. I've long felt that the biggest problem we've had is the lack of depth, and putting the two best programs in one Class would be a waste. That being said, maybe it would open up some breathing room for other Class A schools to thrive.
So what's your solution Out of Town? Do you fire Marr? Because with the way you talk it's the only option. I may need a check up from the neck up, but you definitely need to take the pacifier out of your mouth.
Everything you said was pointless. Dave Marr is not getting removed because of his behavior and the fact that you are acting holier than thou about the whole thing shows you don't live in this world. Coaches freak out. It's a fact of life. Youth league, high school, college, pro, you name it. Should they restrain themselves at times? Sure. But the bottom line is only super-sensitive people seem to make a stink about it.
What's worse is you're not from Yorktown and are using one example to paint him and that, my friend, is asinine and makes you hardly credible. And, yes, you are talking about Marr because of your "winning" reference.
Jim Turnbull was maybe the meanest SOB in recorded history. He could make you feel lower than low, but you know what? He was a legendary coach and you won't hear many people say otherwise.
For someone to criticize Marr like that is ridiculous, the antics at games is simply to fire up his kids and act as a fearless leader, the things that you see at the games is only a small portion of the interactions between marr and his players. The hour or two that he acts like that during games is nothing compared to the good examples and teachings done during practices, etc.
Syracuse,
As always you are an entertaining read…Regarding your earlier comment:
"Many think Rocky Point would handle Syosset. I don't know, probably."
They played on 3/29 (I know – light years ago) – and Syosset beat them 11-6 (giving Rocky Point their only loss of the season).
Yes it is arguable that there would have been a different outcome in June…
Cuse – I am sure Coach Marr is not proud of this behavior, nor should his players be. Complaining to his AD about the officials at a state semi-final game pumps up the team? Throwing a fit when his squad loses to Lakeland in the Murphy is motivational behavior?
Marr has a great lax mind and has proven to be a good coach, but his inabilty to control himself when things go the other way is a problem for him, the great Town program and, as a result, Section 1 Lax.
Ranagan, Fox, Fennassy, Mike B., Interlicchio lead the boys back to the show….
I have played for coach Marr and while he may look like a lunatic on the sidelines he is one of the most patient coaches (with his players, obviously not with the refs) that I have ever played for. I don't think I have ever seen him so much as raise his voice to a player. I'm with Cuse on this one.
laxin, steve14,others
Dont think others questioning Coach Marr's great coaching ability and sounds like overall he's really good with the kids.
Comments focused on his game day behavior towards refs.
Coaches ARE DOING THEIR JOBS by making sure refs know that they will be "called out" on questionable calls. This done throughout sports and hopefully stays in back of ref's mind. If coach Marr's "over the top" outbursts are really occasional then no big deal in scheme of things.
But IF MORE THEN OCCASIONAL Town's high quality program + the highest standards WHICH fans and parents hold Town to should NOT be relaxed for more then occasional "over the top" behavior.
IF this is the case all I'm talking about is the AD sitting down with him privately and bringing it to his attention (maybe has been done before anyway). IF the AD wont say anything then that's also below the high standards of Town. No one minds Coach being "constructively" hard on his kids to teach and get best out of them. That should apply to him as well IF APPROPRIATE.
That's fair isn't it?
Purple and Gold – Yes, Syosset beat Rocky Point, but you said it yourself, back in April. Yorktown got handled by Ward Melville back in April, too. Do you think that maybe the outcome would be different this time? That's all I'm saying. Plus, many people ranked Yorktown and Rocky Point as the best teams they saw at Hofstra. Obviously, it's really hard to give Yorktown too much credit considering the fact that they 1. lost and 2. blew a nice lead in the process.
Out of Town – I'm not excusing Marr's occasional blow-ups at refs. I am saying, however, that as distasteful as his antics are to you and some others, they aren't egregious enough to warrant a public lynching. I think most coaches know their limits. Some go over the top for motivational reasons. Others just go over the top because they can't take "it" (whatever "it" may be) any more.
That said, it's hard to argue against what successful coaches do. Yes, I agree, results often dictate how much lee-way a coach gets with his behavior. I just don't think Marr goes anywhere near crossing the line. Plus, none of us really know if there is a strategy behind his tantrums. I have to believe this is a guy who is calculating in everything he says and does.
Slacrosse – You make good points as ususal. I think what is "appropriate" here is in the eye of the beholder, not what people from a distance perceive. If you worry about what others think, you lose whatever it is that makes you successful. In this case, Marr's fiery temper, though questionable at times, fits what he does. His success is proof. His admiration from his players is proof. What players or parents from other schools think of him really means little in the overall scheme of things. As I said before, antics or no antics, schools would line up for his services.
Cuse,
OK. I'm done with this one and I hope everyone else is too. Points made all around.
You're good to keep your "side" of this thread up, a loyal but always objective Town fan not looking at things thru "rose colored" glasses but with lenses powered to "reality".
Slacrosse, let me guess, you leave in Katonah!
steve14,
Nope. Dont. I'm not a direct JJ or Town fan but rooted hard for them throughout season (except when playing my team Rye). This inc. going to and rooting for them at 1st rd kingston, quarter finals at Town (left Rye game for Town after 1Q), and in the semis at Hofstra. Aside from my team I'm a huge Section 1 fan.
Slacrosse I have two more questions if you don't mind. First I didn't witness any antics by coach Marr and offer no opinion on him. My questions are general in nature about coaching, and directed to bloggers who are neither super-sensitive or wear diapers.
1. At what point do a coach's "antics" become unacceptable?
2. Is the definition of good sportsmanship different for coaches then for players?
Brett Cabrielle will be leading the show next year, Fennessy plays in Cabrielle's shadow and with good reason. Brett is the true defintion of the perfect athlete BOTH ON AND OFF THE FIELD! For all of those doubters out there lay of my main man Bret-o… Also what about Brunelle and Tirelli? You can't complete the star return players without including them
Laxxx888xx,
You can't forget Brette Cabrielle in your list of returning greats for the 2009 season. Fennessy lives in the shadow of # 14, but only because of Brett's pure athletic ability. He does a wonderful job of representing the program BOTH ON AND OFF THE FIELD. Also I am baffled at how you could also leave star studs Brenden Brunelle and Ryan Tirelli off your list of top returning players, that duo should be the foundation for next years state title hungry team
agree about cabrielle but since when is ryan tirelli a star returner?...dont think he played at all last year
Can anyone compare this years best lax teams in NY to the best CT teams, Darien, New Fairfield and Fairfield Prep, how would they do in section 1 or NYS?
Best line I heard when I was a kid holds true today, coaches coach, players play, refs ref, and parents cheer. When any of those roles change, the result just looks bad.
I think unless you were standing right next to Coach Marr from the minute he left that field you shouldnt talk about his behavior. It is a disgrace that Yorktown had petitioned to not have Chuck Cohen ref a single game this entire season and that petition didnt apply to the most important game of the season thus far. No one cares that Marr is more concerned about getting more qualified refs for all games not just his in the future. Or how about the fact that Section One powers that be dont have enough representation/clout to get a semi or final game in the Westchester area year after year. I guess all Marr haters could care less that he was most upset that his players worked all year only to end up short and having to battle bad calls from the refs too. I find it a shame that people use these blogs to bad mouth people that they really dont know. If you want to talk LAX fine…keep your personal attacks to yourself or maybe Joe should shut these blogs down.
Laxmom – Don't come in the kitchen if you can't stand a little heat.
Isn't the ability to control one's emotions a primary characteristic of being considered a mature adult? Case in point – ever see a young child throw a tantrum in a store, unable to control their emotions? When a child has a tantrum the parent typically will make the child aware that the behavior is not acceptable(using different techniques). In Yorktown when a 30 something year old coach throws an tantrum or "freaks out" (to quote Syracuse) at a game people call it being "fiery". Fascinating that the same people who would would reprimand the 3 year old make excuses for 30 year old for the same behavior (the 3 year old with a wiinning record would be the exception). Yorktown certainly won't start losing just cause the AD told Coach Marr to grow up.
Diaper Baby…Classic case of a "know-it-all" missing the point of laxmom. No one was making excuses..Just telling it like it is. People hate Marr because he is so successful..as a Coach and player. Jealous. He still is the only current section one coach to win a title in the last 5 years.
to say that people hate Coach Marr because he is successful is a ridiculus statement. I believe more people are impressed with his success than jealous of it. But that still doesn't excuse unacceptable behavior. We are bringing up a generation of kids that are not being taught the importance of sportsmanship. we were always taught that you strive to do your best to win. but with winning comes the responsibilty to do it in a proper manner and to behave in a proper manner. unfortunately those are lessons no longer being taught. if you win it doesn't matter how you win or act and if you're expected to win and lose instead of acting appropriately it is ok to go after the ref's, yell, scream and break sticks and thats ok. sorry it is not ok and it is a terrible lesson to teach young impressionable kids. I don't believe that it should cost him his job but i do believe he should be reprimanded for his conduct just as he should be congratulated for doing a good job.
laxitup,
My comment to you is maybe it shouldnt ONLY be up to a coach, any coach in any sport, to teach these kids about sportsmanship…Parents these day dont seem to be teaching their kids much of anything and leaving the responsibilties of "teaching" to teachers, coaches, babysitters etc.. Maybe lesson should start at home.
Marr is a good coach ask any player of his. When does Yorktown have to decide by?
Lax…there is no question that the ultimate responsiblity should lie with parents. unfortunately too many parents have expectations that are way out of line with reality and they themselves exhibit very little signs of any sense of sportsmanship. In talking to a few friends who used to be refs, and good ones at that, they no longer ref because it's not worth the abuse they are subject too by parents, coaches etc. I think if the importance of sportsmanship is not stressed again you will lose more and more quality refs. which will obviously make the officiating worse, the complaints more…will be pretty viscious cycle if not corrected. I also know quite a few quality people who won't coach any more for the same type of reasons. Time to go back to basics…teach the kids the rules, enforce the rules, insist on proper behavior from fans, players and coaches and support the officials who are doing the best they can. If your son/daughter is a player they will be noticed without parents yelling and screaming at coaches and officials and perhaps if parents go back to be supportive fans they're kids will be more appreciated as well.
Best Reason for Town to move to B – they have never won a state title in A. Now JJ-Town match-up has some additional bite with a likely playoff encounter as well – can the blogosphere take it?
At the same time, break up Lakeland/Panas – that has run its course. It made sense when there was no quality C teams, but now it is time for them to live or die on their own…
The Lakeland/Panas point made by Sec 1 Lax Fan is VERY interesting …
I agree (gulp) with Syracuse…
Not looking to start a blog war – but I never understood why Lakeland & Panas stay together. I'm sure there were real good reasons 20 years ago – but no longer. Obviously there are enough players (regardless of skill level) to field 2 teams. Shouldn't allowing more kids to play HS sports be what it is about? I think it is even more pronounced in girls lacrosse.
There are only 4 players on the team from Walter Panas. Even if you broke up the team the remaining players from Panas would come to play on the Lakeland team because there wouldn't be enough players. Besides, it's the SAME SCHOOL DISTRICT! Don't fault the kids because the school system decided to build two high schools instead of one.